Revenge of the Castanets

August 1, 2007

Music 2: Me and my arrow

Filed under: Music — flann4 @ 7:54 am

Let’s see if this gets us going. Let’s slaughter a few sacred cows. I am interested in hearing you spout off against critically or popularly lauded groups. They should be well known and for the most part respected so no diatribes against the usual suspects such as Kenny G and I promise not to rant again about Christine Aguilera. So if you hate the Beatles, Arcade Fire or the Killers, or someone like that, let’s hear it. Offend me. Because my hates might target someone you like and vice versa; lets offend and then lets defend. (This is for fun: for the most part I would rather praise the good than excoriate the bad.)

I’ll start with System of a Down. After hearing and hating them on the radio I actually bought one of their cds by accident because I had never heard who sang the songs i hated but had heard the name and thought I should know what they sounded like. I had no problem passing on the cd. To me they sound like Tea Party with the runs. The lead singer who has been hailed as monstrously creative and gifted sounds to me like someone who not only has copious verbal diarrhea but is inordinately proud of it.

And how about Van Morrison? Just read another short article about problems people have in dealing with him (and of course you just have to read articles about people you don’t like) which included absolute isolation before and after the performance, a generally sour demeanor, and a strict adherence to the exact minutes contracted for. And one of the people interviewed said that (and I paraphrase) ‘yes, he was kind of an asshole but when he opened his mouth, angels flew out; he channeled pure music”. What?! Ok, I do like Brown Eyed Girl, and quite a few songs but overall I find he moves me not at all and falls a little into the Emmy Lou Harris category where as soon as they show up on stage, everyone hushes as if in the presence of god but no reason other than tradition for that feeling seems apparent.

27 Comments »

  1. Geeze. Beat on Morrison, why dont you. He’s a classic. It seems almost indecent to pound on a classic.

    I’m really tired of Dave Matthews, but everyone else seems to be too, so that’s not a big deal, I guess. Crash was brilliant but since then his damn gap sensitivity seems so niche, it’s annoying as hell.

    Comment by amuirin — August 1, 2007 @ 10:23 am

  2. Thats the point…no fun in going after the little guys. Forgot to mention I really can’t stand John Mayer. I might go on another little rant re how come so many young folks who should be listening to harsh or political or rebellious music are listening to such middle of the road nonsense. American Idol confused me at first because the mostly young audience was swooning over singers that would have been at home in geriatric settings or perhaps vegas.
    And I had the same reaction to DM. Had Crash and loved it and thought it was instrumentally strong (the middle eastern sounds weaving through it) and then one day I could no longer listen to even a minute of him.

    Comment by aos — August 1, 2007 @ 10:44 am

  3. I hate U2 after Achtung Baby! Especially the latest stuff that people have been raving about. I don’t see it or hear it for that matter. Bono’s voice which was never particularly good, but suited the purpose back in the day, seems like a faint screech of differing pitches now. And the Edge’s guitar work sounds like someone trying to copy the Edge but lacking any real passion. All I hear are the melodious sounds of ka-chinging cash registers!

    Comment by ginzu98 — August 1, 2007 @ 10:48 am

  4. It does seem like we Gen-xers are the last of a generation to want to have political messages :(

    I’ve heard some music that the yungins listen to, but it seems like its all the sons of record producers rehashing stuff with nothing original about it.

    Seems like almost all the music is derivative, there are no unique singers, it all sounds so generic, blaghhhh…

    But I grew up listening to Iggy Pop/The Stooges, Black Flag, The Ramones, The Cure, old U2, old REM, The Replacements, SRV, The Doors, The Descendants, The Dead Milkmen, RHCP, Mary’s Danish, Rollins Band, Jane’s Addiction, Hendrix, Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds, etc.

    I can’t imagine growing up with what they have now? I guess at 35 I am a geezer :P

    Comment by ginzu98 — August 1, 2007 @ 11:33 am

  5. Ginzu- I also lost interest after Achtung but I differ from you in that I really disliked the first few cds from them. In the university pub, one of the barmen kept playing October over and over again (inspersed with Soft Cell) and I just never liked it and also never would have predicted a future for the band. I came around with Joshua Tree and I remember the New Year’s Eve when I first heard Achtung Baby blasting out full volume and I was blown away. And then Zoolook was ok and you know the rest.

    Kids today have good music, its just that for us it was picking fruit off the trees and they have to wade through a lot of shit to find the gems. Think of Rancid for harsh and meaningful, Wilco is smart and complicated, Thom Yorke, the National, Okervill River…they do have some very good things.

    Comment by aos — August 1, 2007 @ 11:49 am

  6. AOS- I agree about earliest U2 did not do much for me. I guess I didn’t like em till “Unforgettable Fire Collection”. Didn’t like October much either.

    I was listing my primary and secondary education music choices. If I include the college years, then I’d have to claim Radio Head. I guess I am unaware of kids ed <=25 yoa listening to Radio Head at least here.

    Although, with the internet, maybe college radio is dead, and there is a whole plethora of bands for the yungins to find :D But at least in terms of what is popular or “alternative” seems derivative and uninspiring to me. But maybe the “cool kids” have a blog somewhere that serves as a clearing house for “good music” :)

    Comment by ginzu98 — August 1, 2007 @ 12:12 pm

  7. Actually I blame Billy Corgan! Just cuz the Pumpkins went all experimetnal and lost the pop following, Billy through another hissy fit and declared if people would rather listen to Britney Spears then they were quiting! What a pussy! If I as talented and had the money to do whatever I want musically, then I’d do it, and if people liked it fine, if not fine, WTF? He was such a frig’n baby! So we got stuck with Spears, Aquillera, etc for 7 years or so of pop garbage and American idol BS.

    That’s what I admired about Pearl Jam, they just do their thing, and if it sells great if not fine. And that loser band Creed HATE THEM, were slamming PJ in the press as has beeens! HAHAHA whose still playing and who isn’t? Didn’t Scott Stap get arrested for beating his wife again.

    Comment by ginzu98 — August 1, 2007 @ 12:24 pm

  8. OH, and “The Wonder Stuff” I really liked them! They had an album originally released as “Kill every American”, but in the USA it was “Never Loved Elvis”!

    I would also like to add to my music list of my youth, The Mission UK, Fields of the Nephilim, and Sisters of Mercy.

    Comment by ginzu98 — August 1, 2007 @ 1:42 pm

  9. You listed a couple there I am not familiar with. Another part of the poblem which was brought up in a discui\ssion on http://ombudsben.wordpress.com/ was that there is greater fractionalization these days….less of a common music. Many cool little bands that only the people in the area know about. So you hear good stuff but can’t really talk to anyone about it.

    For a futher post we can also talk about why almost everyone things their taste is good. You and I both think we have taste but we don’t agree on all things so what does that mean? Again….that could use its own entry…maybe throw that up later this week.

    Comment by aos — August 1, 2007 @ 1:53 pm

  10. Well in our youth music was fairly simply categorized as I remember.

    Classic Rock- Led Zep (the last era of bands formed by great session musicians)
    Psychedelic Rock- The Doors (moody)
    Glam Rock- NY Dolls (fucking brilliant)
    Glam Metal- Poison (Hate)
    Metal-Def Leapard (can’t take a hint)
    Heavy Metal-AC/DC (boooring)
    Death Metal-Slayer (gives me a headache)
    Speed Metal-Anthrax (never could get into)
    Soft Metal- Winger (I think Butthead said enough)
    American Punk Rock-The Ramones (minimalist and melodic, not great musicians)
    UK Punk Rock-The Sex Pistols (over rated)
    Hard Core- Dirty Rotten Imbeciles (only cuz the girl I liked liked them)
    Pop Punk-blink 182 (hate them! Derivative.Booring. Insulting to good taste!)
    New Wave-The Cure (one of my favs, but only when Porl is in the band)
    Ska- The Mighty Bostones (I like SRAWL better)
    Southern Rock- The Eagles (booring, Joe Walsh’s solo stuff is interesting)
    80s College Radio- REM/The Replacements (pioneers, too bad the former kept going, and the latter stopped)
    90s Alternative-Radiohead (pioneers of the 90s and beyond)
    Grunge- Nirvana (over rated)
    Techno-Moby??? (I am unfamiliar with this genre)
    Industrial-Ministry (I was partial to LARD cuz of Jello Biafra)

    i don’t think my taste is good per say, but when I hear blink 182 or at least the earlier Green Day stuff, I can’t help but think, unoriginal, derivative, posers!

    Comment by ginzu98 — August 1, 2007 @ 2:32 pm

  11. Ouch! You think the System of a Down sounds like Tea Party with the runs? That is the ultimate insult. The Tea Party is shite. System of a Down is a group of talented (mostly) guys making melodic heavy music with middle eastern influences (justifiable, as they are Armenian, not some guy trying to channel Jim Morrison and seem deep by throwing some Eastern instruments on top of crap rock) and a political message (mostly). Now, admittedly, they have yet to produce an album that doesn’t have a few stinkers, but give Toxicity another listen and tell me there aren’t some great tracks there (Needles, Deer Dance, Chop Suey, Toxicity, Aerials). And the second album of the Hypnotize/Memorize dual thing (I can never remember which came first) is actually pretty solid while the majority of the song writing on the first album is pretty vapid although occasionally catchy. I know that doesn’ sound like much of a defense, but I do think System deserves more respect that comparing them to the Tea Party.
    I do agree with the dislikes of some of the other folks here. Boo to John Mayer and Dave Matthews. I prefer my music with a lot of songwriting talent, musical interest/innovation, and a hefty dose of melody, so of late I have been listening to a lot of Iron and Wine, Joe Purdy, Band of Horses, Neutral Milk Hotel, The Decemberists… it’s been a mellow year.

    Comment by Nat — August 1, 2007 @ 11:52 pm

  12. Hey Nat, you put up a good defense for System, almost makes me want to take another listen but you know, life is too short. But I am waiting for someone to trash someone I like. After that happens we can move on to the “they are better than you think” discussion or the “if you only heard the first couple of albums (the Elton John effect)” discussion.

    Ginzu…you reminded me of one of my all time hates…those Ramones..overrated and just plain untalented…Nirvana was over rated but they were good…relistens always take me by surprise and the last unplugged show was something to watch even if it lost something without the visuals..in my very much underrated list is Courtney’s cd…..holds up very well.
    Still rawks.

    Comment by aos — August 2, 2007 @ 12:29 am

  13. K, I like John Mayer. I do. I didn’t ‘get’ him at all after his first song hit it big, your body is a wonderland. But then I watched the grammy’s that year. It was big sweaty production after big sweaty production, and it was pretty lame, and all of a sudden this very ordinary looking kid gets up there with a guitar hanging from a strap around his neck and with nothing more than a smile, he starts to sing and play.

    And it was mesmerizing. He was awesome. He didn’t need lights and dancers and choreography and backup singers, all he needed was the guitar. I had gotten up to go downstairs, bored with Grammy’s and I stood there frozen through the song. He’s got talent. I don’t think his stuff is mopey, I think it’s thoughtful, and I think he’s sincere.

    Clarity was cool. The daughters song was heartfelt. But ‘Why, Georgia’ has been one of my favorite songs for a long time. It’s a song that I think a lot of my generation relates to. When you have everything going for you but you still feel lost and kind of rootless, seeing long life stretch out before you without the certainty that previous generations seemed to have, about their place and what was right and wrong, and what they were supposed to do. Privilege without the anchor of duty. The american legacy.

    I am drivin’ 85 in the kind of morning that
    lasts all afternoon. Just stuck inside the gloom

    4 more exits to my apartment but
    I am tempted to keep the car in drive
    and leave it all behind.

    Cus I wonder sometimes (about the outcome)
    of this still verdictless life
    am I living it right?
    am I living it right?
    Why, Why Georgia, why?

    I rent a room and I fill the spaces with
    wooden pieces to make it feel like home
    but all I feel’s alone

    It might be a quarter-life crisis
    or just the stirring in my soul

    but I wonder sometimes
    about the outcome
    of a still verdictless life

    Am I living it right?

    Comment by amuirin — August 2, 2007 @ 12:30 am

  14. Ok but who do you hate? Please pick someone I like…I want to be a defender too. But as you point out context, and maybe esp context on the first encounter, is so important. I’ve had great moments with people I generally don’t like and vice versa. Once a person has you, they have to do a lot to lose you.

    Comment by aos — August 2, 2007 @ 12:35 am

  15. *blinks* but I feel bad about that after what you wrote about him.

    Leonard Cohen’s music… is something I turn off very quickly after it’s turned on. He sounds mopey to me, his voice so low.

    And as long as I’m practicing sacrilege, Johnny Cash. It’s not pleasant to listen to. I don’t like the style he sang in. Ring of fire was an awesome song written for him and he botched it all to hell by singing it. It wasn’t heartfelt, it sounded like a jingle with Johnny’s goofy rhythm and voice added to it.

    And y’know what else? The whole genre of punk has always sounded to me like grown-ups indulging a snot-nosed teenage fit, only doing so up on stage in front of people. If I could get paid to throw a tantrum and misuse an instrument, maybe I’d do it to. Except, I doubt it would be worth the headache.

    ….was that helpful?

    Comment by amuirin — August 2, 2007 @ 12:42 am

  16. Yes, a bit. I won’t defend Cohen since I already have but as to punk I have mixed feelings. Its anti-musicianship grated on me for a long time esp after Johnny Lydon or Rotten said that was the point that anybody, talent or not, could get up there and do it. But I heard a few acts that kind of moved me though punk purists might have problems with this band but Rancid which has great songwriting and political smarts and energy. Tales of low rent Brit squallor and frustration and yearning and romanticism as well.

    And I don’t think the Replacements are exactly punk but they do graze up against it and they were astonishing even if there was too much made of the departure of the bad seed (kind of like everyone whining when Brian Jones was no longer a Stone). There seems to be a cult of admiring the lesser talented fuckups that leave bands (or die). And if the Replacements are punk then in a kind of a way so are The Who. And I just might have to also put the Minutemen up there but they are probably closer to speed metal. Too many labels, its all so confusing.

    However I agree on the snot nose factor but all through a number of forms. Its what I like about the older bands. They worked hard and had to jump through a lot more hoops to get anywhere and by that time they had things to say. Unless someone is pretty precocious, they don’t have all that much to say to us (and maybe thats why I pay less attention to lyrics than i used to). And why I like Cohen. He’s a grownup.

    Have to agree with you on Cash who should have been banned from singing (as well as the whole damned Carter family) except for his incredible cover of Hurt. I seem to remember Eric Burdon doing Ring of Fire and thinking not too bad though I don’t agree that its all that much to write home about.

    Comment by aos — August 2, 2007 @ 1:00 am

  17. see, it’d be easier to poke at something you like if we knew what you liked.

    so who do you like?

    Comment by amuirin — August 2, 2007 @ 1:10 am

  18. Tons but I do have to work tomorrow and its after 1 right now so its the short off the top of the head list….Beatles, Stones, Who, Doors, The Band, Replacements, Pixies, Wilco, Arcade Fire, The National, Okervil River, Led Zeppelin, Buddy Guy, BB King, Screaming Trees, Randy Newman (not the Disney stuff), Spirit of the West, Bjork, Tom Waits, Sara Mclaughlin, Cheryl Crow, Sonic Youth, PJ Harvey, Weezer, Wolf Parade, Elliott Smith, Black Keys, Sugar, King Crimson, and a host of singer songwriters like Josh Ritter. And there is more…left out the jazz and most of the blues names.

    Go at it folks.

    Comment by aos — August 2, 2007 @ 1:23 am

  19. On the topic of punk:

    AOS like you were saying about Lydon’s comment, the punk movement was that you didn’t have to be a great musician like Hendrix or have a great voice like ??? and if you had something to say you said it. If it took 1 minute and sounded like shit then that’s fine.

    But like Chrissy Hynde of the PRetenders said, eventually you have to learn to be a musician, but at least you got started.

    what bothers me is the pop-punk bands that are so derivative, adn they don’t even have an edge. Most of em are from the burbs and the upper-middle class! Like Green Day annoyed me to no end being from frig’n Berkeley and trying to sound like they are a UK punk rock band- wankers :P

    And then the look of punk always pissed me off too!

    I agree more with Iggy Pop that Punk is an attitude not a fashion statement and its nothing more than speaking truth to power, or saying what’s on your mind.

    I can see where you might say The Who has a punk element. I never could really get into them. But I remember seeing their concert footage and reading about them and thinking they had the tude.

    AOS which Hole CD? Malibu??? The one that Billy basically wrote?

    HATE Stone Temple Pilots OMG they suck! Interstate love song is good but that’s it.
    Hate GNR mostly cause the bassist wears a lock and chain like Sid

    I liked the Cult when they were the Southern Death Cult, but the later stuff all was the same.

    I like Arcadia! Surely someone will give me shit for that.

    I don’t like David Bowie, maybe a song or two, but my fav of his Iggy wrote, China Girl.

    Too bad Buckley got drunk and drowned in the Mississippi, I thought he was good.

    Fishbone was good!

    hmmm

    In general I prefer the music of brooding angry middle-class youth, well at least when I was young. I am getting soft in my old age.

    In general I want to be challenged, make think, make me feel, piss me off, make me want to learn that riff or chord progression…

    Cash’s version of Hurt was very moving, but yeah singing was not his strong suit. He also covered a Soundgarden song, Rusty Cage.

    Comment by ginzu98 — August 2, 2007 @ 1:39 am

  20. Sorry AOS, either I never heard of em or I like em or at least appreciate/respect em :(

    Screaming Trees is an all time fav

    I was in Seattle in 1987/8 summer and they were playing at some street festival. And then a year later I was at a record store in Houston and the “Invisible Lantern” was on the shelf and so I bought it and was a fan ever since.

    I think Lanegan has one of the best voices in rock. He gets compared to Jim Morrison, but that’s just the whiskey. I think Lanegan has true vocal talent, emotes better, and his lyrics are superior to Morrison’s. Morrison lyrics are too much of an homage to his literary interests, its a little pretentious and trying to hard. IMHO

    But can I say. I can barely string an alliteration and a guitar riff that doesn’t come from the pentatonic minor scale :P

    Comment by ginzu98 — August 2, 2007 @ 1:46 am

  21. Hole: Live Through This (didn’t like any after that).
    Bowie: Might have to write up a defense later.
    Fishbone was fun.
    Jeff Buckley to me was a pale version of his father. Though some of his material dates, overall he had a stronger voice than the son and a sexual edginess that is rare in rock. I’ve said it before that in rock there are lots of love songs, lots of posturing but very little real sexuality. Buckley cornered the market on desperate sex, on pain and longing..listen to Greetings from LA and the songs Hong Kong Bar and Make It Right. He was one of those performers who changed the words everytime he sang and usually went pretty free form. Started as kind of a Miles Davis of folk music.
    Screaming Trees: Love Lanegan’s album with Isobel Campbell (Ballad of the Broken Seas) different from his usual but that voice! And he was the only reason I sort of liked a couple of Queens of the Stone Age songs.

    Comment by aos — August 2, 2007 @ 8:45 am

  22. AS far as Jeff Buckley goes, he died young, who knows what might of come had he lived. But if you compare him to his contemporaries and not his father, I thought his music was very different. IT wsa like a folk-gospel-rock-jazz-improv blend.

    The live version of their songs are filled with lots of improv and homages to other songs.

    Buckley also played like 30 songs at a bar in France, just him and a guitar and he was talking to the audience. Reminded me of going to a coffee bar and a folk singer is there who really loves music and seems modest.

    His version of strange fruit is really haunting.

    Lanegan can do know wrong to my ears :P I like the QOTSA ok, but yes anything LAnegan was on I really liked. The hanging tree played live on the radio acoustic was very haunting too.

    Comment by ginzu98 — August 2, 2007 @ 10:56 am

  23. I think the whole Buckley thing is amazing if we believe the press releases. The son who basically capitulates the career and death of the father without even knowing him, and the similar sound, and look. If you haven’t heard the father, have a listen to the cd I mentioned and whether you like it or not you will be struck by the similarities.

    Comment by aos — August 2, 2007 @ 11:02 am

  24. Believe the press? Never. I agree there are similarities, many. And yes the father was the original. But I think Jeff B. compared to his contemporaries is impressive, but seems less so when compared to his father. But that isn’t exactly fair I think.

    I a;ways felt bad for Julian Lennon, it was so obvious that the record companies were trying to make money off of him. funny thing was that while he sounded like his father, I thought his music sounded more like Mcartney’s :P

    I like Sean Lennon’s stuff and his time with Cibo Matto. Also Pizzicatto 5 is really good. I can’t understand a word they are saying (except for the occasional english word like “baby”), but musically its really good!

    Comment by ginzu98 — August 2, 2007 @ 11:41 am

  25. This maybe a nitpicky little point (’scuse me if so), but way back up there numerous comments ago, Ginzu98, you have the Doors as “psychedelic rock.”

    I’m not sure if you were looking for the most prototypical band for those categories or not. But when I think of psychedelic rock it’s much more Iron Butterfly or Moby Grape or even early Jefferson Airplane. Songs like “Incense and Peppermints” by Strawberry Alarm clock; “Journey to the Center of Your Mind” by the Amboy Dukes.

    The Doors were of that time, you bet. They may have done some psychedelic stuff, but they had much more range–at times Jim was straight out of the blues. “Alabama Song (Whiskey Bar)”:

    Oh show me, the way, to the next whiskey bar …

    Also, if I were to choose one band to epitmoize southern rock, I’d have to start with the Allman Brothers, not the Eagles. (The Eagles formed in LA; Frey was from Detroit, Henley from Tex.) After the Allmans, it’d be Lynyrd Skynyrd — for their retort to Neil Young, if nothing else.
    (”Southern man don’t need him around, anyhow.” ;)

    I’m with you on much of the rest, especially Led Zep and the NY Dolls. (Have you ever seen the movie “NY Doll”? A fascinating bio and my favorite rock-umentary for the amazing contrasts in Killer Kane’s life as a Mormon longing for his glamrock young adulthood.)

    Can’t go wrong with AC/DC for heavy metal, following in the footsteps of bands like Deep Purple and Black Sabbath (ghastly reminders of my brash youth).

    Comment by OmbudsBen — August 4, 2007 @ 7:01 pm

  26. Oh I didn’t mean to pick the definitive. I wasn’t sure where to put the doors, but Wiki listed them under psychedelic. All hail Wiki. Wiki knows all :P

    But the original point of the thread was to try to rip on each others musical taste, so I was trying to do that while address an earlier point about the insanity of the categories of rock and our nature to label everything.

    And yes it was my duty to see NY Doll- very touching doc I thought.

    Comment by ginzu98 — August 5, 2007 @ 12:36 am

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